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Rob121 год тому назад
@Firefly, My aversion to change is telling me I can wait for a solid working version of "Sculpt Mode". It hasn't stopped us from building anything by not having these tools so far. However a properly thought out and designed system of these tools would be very beneficial, in all the ways that Obi describes.
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obi-1 год тому назад
I'm just saying how it is, this is a feature best released sooner than later (never), even in a very reduced version. Hence why I'm suggesting implementations, that to me, seem like they would require the least work and investment from you. Adding some urgency into my messages doesn't hurt, might actually make it happen sooner. I thought it was clear what the use cases and functionality were, I'd love to talk about it later today on stream, as we said we would last week.
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Firefly1 год тому назад
@Rob12: I think my most recent suggestion borders very closely on what you described that another game you play does, so I'm sure you'll feel right at home. @obi-: I experience a ton of friction between us here. We can of course talk about it on the livestream, but that forces the discussion to be synchronous and makes it completely inaccessible to many players.
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obi-1 год тому назад
Wrote this right after the stream, posting this later so Firefly can sleep: The final version Firefly described on stream seems like a great goal to shoot towards. It's also a fact that, if building tools are something Firefly decides to pursue, everyone involved gains more the sooner they happen, no matter how many tools, or what form they take, be it a command version or whatever seems most doable for the first intermediate version. --- I understand that Firefly's design we saw on stream is very much still in the works. I will still give feedback on it though: Stuff like rotation should definitely not be tied just to the way player is facing; I mean, I do like it, it's a great all platform solution. Still, it should also be tied to keyboard controls, alongside being controlled by the way the player is facing. Building has always been better and more efficient with a keyboard and mouse anyway, making use of those extra buttons seems like a good idea. Perhaps when a player holds the tool in hand, the game could switch to a completely new, building specific set of keyboard shortcuts. That way the problem of not having any good keys to assign controls to is gone. Stuff like movement would of course still need to stay the same. A way to use the mouse-wheel for input (rotation, resizing) would be good too. On the spot idea: Whole tool in hand press some arbitrary button to go into 'build key-binds mode', hold R and move mouse wheel to rotate holographic selection (cuz of the 'build key-binds mode' the R key wouldn't open the telecharger). (a way to get around the problems temporarily is to implement an intermediate no-UI (command perhaps) version of the tools) --- I didn't really answer your questions in #70, cuz I thought: ah let's just leave this to the stream, since the stream was less than 12h away, and we will talk there anyway. So here's hopefully the kind of answer you expect. Copying, pasting, rotating, cutting any size volumes would be a more than amazing start. Just copying and pasting would already make a groundbreaking start, and open up a new renaissance like era of building. More on other tools: We can probably forget about rolling. Rolling is kind of pointless if we can select any volume size, rolling is useful purely when you have fixed volumes like claims. And to be clear, being restricted to just claims is much much less powerful than selecting any size. Selecting any size is best. But if the first version was claim only, no builder would complain, given the promise of something better in the future. Complex shape creation like spheres, cuboids and cylinders is kind of the lowest priority in my mind, most of those can be derived easily from copy paste alone. Stuff like texturing should happen before shapes, since a builder can spend multiple hours texturing a wall, but can build a cylinder or cuboid in like 2 minutes given just simple copy+paste. Idea to make shape creation more powerful: Choose x points to create a 3d polyhedron of any shape, with fill or edge-only option. That way you can create custom terrain in like 10 minutes. Only problem being that you can't select block locations that are mid air, still an open problem. Two solutions I see for selecting air cells: player position, or even better: The block selection has controllable a max range, so if a player is looking at an area that doesn't have any blocks within that range, just air, the highlighted cell is whatever is in the cell that's on the edge of the range, which can be air, if the player is looking at a closer block that is within range, it highlights that block. Then tie the range to the mouse wheel or something, so you can control the selection range. Seems pretty intuitive, visual and easy to use to me. This functionality could also be used in something like a line tool, an example of where it could have been used: Angelio's Senevoy cloth lines between buildings, with the line tool he could have just chosen one end, some lower middle points (to create a nice realistic curve), and the other end. Another tool: Stretching: Simplest way to do this would be to just take the selection edge blocks and repeat them along chosen axis. Basically copy paste the last slice of the selection along one axis. Useful when creating complex stuff. Having a 'clipboard' of multiple cut selections would be another great upgrade. Paste should have an additive and overwrite option. So a little priority list from me personally, based on usefulness, not how hard I believe is to implement: ('>' means left side is more important) Copy/cut + paste(overwrite) > paste(additive) > rotate > mirror on axis > texture >> stretch >>>> polyhedron creation > line tool >>> simple shape creation > clipboard
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Firefly1 год тому назад
I dislike how 'building tools' entirely dominates this topic now, but I'll take it as a sign that nobody cares about other changes. Thanks for the free issue prioritization :-) Now I fell into my own 'trap' yesterday, discussing implementation details instead of understanding what you all want. The wide variety of implementation suggestions by @obi- shows that there are hundreds of ways to add something—anything—that would be considered hugely beneficial by everyone. I just do not understand the sudden urgency, and I still only partially understand the 'why'. One reason for the urgency (that I've heard) is the notion that I need newer, better builds for a 'New Angeldust' trailer. But you all have built 20+ new wonders since the last official game trailer and I've kept these under wraps so that I can show them off later. These are fantastic builds with a huge variety in styles, colors and showcased features. I really couldn't ask for more; this already is top-notch stuff. Does that lessen the urgency, or am I missing other reasons? Then the 'why'—this falls into the 'faster horse' category. Why do you want what you want? Why do you perceive copying entire claims to be similarly useful to an automated texturizing tool? They are functionally very far apart in my uninformed opinion, so I don't understand why they would solve your problems to the same extent. I can prioritize things all I want, but unless I understand the actual problem I can not decide what will be a solution. So what is the problem? What are we trying to solve? Can three or more of you (semi-)wonder builders give me a concrete scenario that played out or is playing out in the game that you need fixed? Be specific, maybe with a screenshot, and explain the task you're facing. Don't think in tools, think of your specific, concrete goals. Like: I want to win my next tennis match, I want to paint a horse, I want to replace my laptop's battery. Hopefully the above sounds like a silly question, because that means your goals will be super obvious to describe. You have to understand that I'm not a builder at all and I have idea about the goals and problems you're dealing with. The solutions might take the form of everything that has been suggested so far, but I need to gain more confidence in my understanding first. --- Aside from that, I have a few Angeldust-specific problems for which I can not find a decent solution: A.) Biggest damage: the show, part IV—remember the grief claim amplification attack? With three clicks or taps a griefer can now remove an entire build. Non-solutions I see: different build permission levels for friends (convoluted, will be abused anyway) or only being able to use tools on your own claims (impractical for almost everyone). B.) Disconnects: you are playing. You are cutting. You are disconnected. You are now crying. C.) Wireless photon addressing: by moving photon stuff the addressing will be out of whack. With some convoluted magic I could remap coordinates, but there is no guarantee that destination blocks will be copied/moved along so you almost always end up with internal inconsistencies. --- Looking at the larger picture lately I'm noticing that I experience little net gain from me sharing in-progress features. The most well-received new features are the ones that I've spent ages on perfecting, and the most ill-received ones are the ones that are very much in-progress. Because I'm the bottleneck in the entire process I think keeping me motivated and happy is paramount, so maybe don't expect me to reveal and talk about more new stuff until I've had the time to push earlier and newer things to a level that you've been used to. We tried the experiment, had a lot of joy initially, but I need to prevent this from becoming the thing that kills the entire project.
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Rob121 год тому назад
@Firefly, I think you know where I am coming from on the build tools idea, but I will sum it up once again. I am not in any hurry for any new development, but because I was mentioned in comments about building tools, I decided to provide constructive, informative information, from what I know, from the game world out there. For me there is no current problem with building as we are now. The only reason I can see for a rush, is that it fits into others timelines, eg they are pressed for time to build and so, want a shortcut method. Yes it would be useful and can be done, but I have no hurry or real concern as to when or if it ever gets implemented. As for other game improvements. Again I'm in no hurry, but the more urgent thing for ALL players might be the village idea. Which I would also support doing something with, to make it more of a meeting zone. I also provided a list of names for a new game name too and I think main graphic improvements can also be done but there's no hurry.
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obi-1 год тому назад
I think I stepped over some lines. Sorry about that. Feel free to move or completely delete the whole build tool thing, so the thread can return to it's core. In this post I will try to answer all questions in your previous post. To answer the why we would want this question: 80% of building in this game is repeating small monotone tasks, like placing blocks to build a wall, to build a platform, texturing ... I'm sure some builders enjoy that part, and they can keep on doing that even if there are build tools in the game. The actual creative part, the designing, the layout, the idea for the build, is the much smaller part of what it takes to create a build. Any way to turn building towards 80% creative design and 20% small repetitive tasks would be a win for everyone. --- Texturing vs Copy+paste: Texturing is similar in usefullnes to copy pasting cuz you can save hours of time with just a few clicks, functionally very different, but both save a lot of time on things that the other can't. Another why: When you build in angeldust, you have to be sure what you're doing is gonna be the right thing to do. Every builder hates having to delete or move things. Being able to move whole buildings or statues, perhaps maybe just by a few blocks would give builders the freedom to not be afraid to just try things, as it doesn't cost them much time if it turns out bad. Personal use cases: The area around my neferspi sept is empty, with just copy paste I'd be able to create bare skeletons of houses very quickly. Ekplixi is all about custom terrain, with just copy paste I'd be able to create terrain that would take hours in like 20 minutes. With texturing I'd be able to create the initial layer of grass easily. My process for creating what I think is quality custom terrain in ekplixi is very time heavy, I build the shape with blue marble, then I replace the top layer with grass, where I think grass should be, then I texture the grass and the parts that aren't grass, just doing one claim of terrain like this can already take a lot of time. This all stuff that copy paste and texturing would really really help with. Reason for urgency: These tools save time, having just the most basic tool sooner, would be better. Of course we have lived just fine without them, we also lived fine before the bulldozer. Absolutely nothing will change if these tools don't happen. We do have 20+ amazing wonders, but in a world where we had these tools from the start of the game, we could have 50+, more amazing wonders by now. I understand you're more than happy with the builds we already have, but wouldn't having way more of that be even better? --- Build tools also tie into stuff like the the public starting village and the casino. If pursued, once the basic idea is in place, and the building process starts, given just the basic copy+paste tool, you already give whoever will make that place a lot more freedom to just try things without risking time. They could try different layouts in something like 20 minutes, they wouldn't need to spend time deleting things that turned out to be a bad idea. It would save weeks upon weeks of time. I know the dungeons would have been finished quicker had I had some tools, would probably have some more rooms as well. My builds would be far larger, and everyone else's too. Given just some basic tools, I believe many builders who used to be very active, who are still in the community, but have found themselves busy with real life things, would probably build more/again, if one could achieve things that used to take hours in just a few minutes. --- Open Angeldust-specific problems: A: Restrict build tools to people who don't want to risk getting banned: Donator badge and up. The dragon is already behind a paywall, so I guess the build tools could be too. Not perfect, but it fixes the problem mostly. B: If you disconnect with a cut build, just undo the cut? (or any other destructive action) Place the build back to the original position when disconnected. Then the player can log in and continue from where they left off. C: Have all wireless photon stuff become bricked, just delete their inputs. Since volumes can be moved from inside a claim anywhere, even between two different claims, this is something that can't be solved for every case. Having the wireless data remap when all placed inside one claim would be cool, but unnecessary for the first version of the tools.
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Firefly1 год тому назад
Would it be a reasonable limitation for the structural modification tools to not work with complex blocks like holo scrolls, photon mimics and the like? As in: the tools would signal via colors and/or messages that they can not operate when such blocks are part of the affected volume. Same for partial trees: can the tool refuse to work when a tree is partially inside the affected area? And it would only work if any contained trees are fully selected?
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